Is God omnipresent or does he need "two or three"?

[Brandon]

If God is Omnipresent, he is everywhere at all times.

If that is true, then why is this verse in the Bible:

Matthew 18:20 (NIV)
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

Here are some omnipresent verses:

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Jeremiah 23:23,24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

Psalm 113:5
Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high.

Psalm 123:1
Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.

I Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

What do you think?

Brandon

[ex-porn_addict]

From what I've heard and read, this verse is one of the most commonly used out-of-context verses. And I would have to agree with that assessment. It doesn't make a lot of sense to just be stuck in that passage, without also reading verses 15-19 along with it. From there I think we can get a better understanding of what Jesus was talking about when He said this.

Here's what someone had to say about this (from a random blog I googled for). I've never read it before, but I believe it to be sound.

Essentially, this journal claims that the main point of this verse is about dealing with sin in the church. He goes on to add

I see no reason to expand this verse to mean that whenever two Christians are in the same geographic location, Jesus is somehow more present there than when they are apart.

He also provides an interesting explanation of verse 19 (which baffles me), and the comments also follow this up well.

I hope this helps out Brandon. And maybe it will take this in a different direction. What stands out to me, is why there isn't a more significant role of confrontation/discipline in the church when sin happens.

[pianoman]

When Christ said "there I will be" He meant His Spirit, the Holy Spirit. When Christians gather together in His Name, the Holy Spirit makes His presence known. God the Son, Jesus the Christ, is NOT omnipresent. He is at the Right Hand of the Father. It is His Spirit that is omnipresent.

[ex-porn_addict]

I agree that it is the Holy Spirit that is with us today.

However, I don't understand the point of this verse if it is taken only to mean that the Holy Spirit is present with us when we gather with other Christians for the purpose of glorifying Jesus Christ. If you interpret it this way, you can argue it's always better to be with other Christians. But what about times of prayer when we're alone? Isn't the Holy Spirit there at that time, too?

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by pianoman

When Christ said "there I will be" He meant His Spirit, the Holy Spirit. When Christians gather together in His Name, the Holy Spirit makes His presence known. God the Son, Jesus the Christ, is NOT omnipresent. He is at the Right Hand of the Father. It is His Spirit that is omnipresent.

This reasoning makes partial sense to me.

However the New Testament is clear that we have the Holy Spirit with us always, not just when two or three are present.

I'm not trying to be annoying with my reasoning, just trying to get a firm grasp of this.

Brandon

[IsshouFuuraibou]

Actually since the Holy Spirit is with us all ways, I think Jesus was infering that his actually presense will be with the church, since the church is any gathering of christians. He may or may not be omnipresent as God the Son, but he is God none the less, and he will be will those who call on him name.

The church, as fellowship between christians, different parts of the body of Christ, it is in this likeness that the chruch resembled God, and the relationship of the Trinity. Just as the Trinity is God three in one, so is the church seperate beleivers, but one body.

[ocheagle]

This is an interesting topic. I have a theory...God is definitely interested in corporate praise and our assembling together for worship. Perhaps it's not so much that his Spirit cannot come and bless one single person worshipping, but that he wants to encourage us to join together for praise and reminds us that he will particularly reward us with his presence when we do. "He inhabits the praise of his people." Maybe the word "inhabits" paints a stronger picture than just "exists." He is not just present when we praise him together...he lives there!

Just my thoughts.

Peter

[undignifieddancer]

I agree with Brother Iss. I could not have said it any better. :clap:


In Christ.

Jeff

[ex-porn_addict]

Originally Posted by IsshouFuuraibou

Actually since the Holy Spirit is with us all ways, I think Jesus was infering that his actually presense will be with the church, since the church is any gathering of christians. He may or may not be omnipresent as God the Son, but he is God none the less, and he will be will those who call on him name.

What about Matthew 28:20 where Jesus says, "I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

And also the writer of Hebrews takes a promise God gave to Joshua, and reiterates it for those believers, and for us: "I will never leave you nor forsake you." (Hebrews 13:5, Joshua 1:5, Deuteronomy 31:6,

Does anybody else think the rest of the context of this passage has anything to do with the meaning of this verse?

[pianoman]

What about Matthew 28:20 where Jesus says, "I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Actually aren't we splitting hairs here. Christ said he and the Father were one. The Holy Spirit is sent out from the Father and the Son, but He is one with the Father also. When Jesus says Iam with you always he really means it and when God says he will never, no never leave us, He really means it. Sorry my bible memorization is the pits. I got all this from my catechism.